
Otunba Biyi Durojaiye, a chieftain of the ruling All Progressives Congress, APC, was a senator of the Federal Republic of Nigeria between 2003 and 2007. An astute banker and lawyer of repute, he delves into the past to exhume the economic magic President Muhammadu Buhari used as head of state to stabilize the value of the naira, saying the same wizardry may be handy again, this time around .
He speaks with the insight of a technocrat who worked in cahoots with the eggheads at the time to do it. He warns APC to be wary of the self-inflicted crisis in 2011 that cost the Peoples Democratic Party, PDP, the last elections. Durojaiye, who is 82 years old, also speaks more on the late Pa Obafemi Awolowo, Yoruba leadership, the man who is Nigeria among other issues. Excerpts:
How do you see the steps so far taken by President Muhammadu Buhari in the last three weeks of his full assumption of power? Are they sure-footed steps or faltering ones?
I believe they are firm steps in the right direction. That is my candid observation.
But some people are disillusioned that he has so far failed to appoint key officers of his administration several weeks after being sworn in. Normally, when presidents or governors take over, the next day or two they appoint the Secretary to the Government, the Chief of Staff, the Media Adviser and the National Security Adviser to lay the foundation for the government….
Where is it written in the constitution? Where is it specified that from so so time to so so time you must appoint these officers? Tell me where it is said that from the date of swearing in the appointment of ministers should be done? Where is it in the constitution? You must consider the circumstances of this country. The man has inherited a messy situation. He must be very sure that things are properly sorted out. You don’t just rush into the fray without being sure of the things on ground that will enable you know where you are going. Already, you people are wondering whether he is sure-footed or not .Which will be better to stay some three weeks before announcing, or to announce within 24hours, only to find out that major mistakes had been made? So, I will say that he should be given some chance to sort things out. The anomalies of the past 16 years of PDP rule cannot be cured in three weeks, not in three months, probably not in six months. It takes some time.
But some people still insist that the government had a window of nearly three months after the election on March 28 and the swearing in on May 29 to put its acts together and forge ahead for the sake of expediency and smooth take off…
Take note that there was supposed to be a proper handing over note. A committee was set up to take over. The committee could not get the cooperation of the outgoing government. Maybe the outgoing government was very busy tidying up its affairs. They didn’t hand over properly. They could not meet. This is in the public domain. So, there was no effective handover until the inauguration. I don’t agree with you that the president ought to have started to run from the day of the election. No. It’s from the day of swearing in. And that is only three weeks so far.
What about grumblings in some quarters that within the three weeks in office he has already traveled to five countries. How do you factor that in?
Was it on holidays? Did he embark on holidays? Was it on frivolities? He went on invitation and that was a great honour that seven of the most powerful nations in the world were having their routine meetings and they invited him to be there. That is something Nigerians should be proud of. And they told him, “Tell us what your needs are and we will try to cooperate with your government.” That is tremendous goodwill. Remember that the last phrase, the last section of President Buhari’s speech on the day he was sworn in referred to Shakespeare that there is a tide in the affairs of men, which when taken at the flood leads on to fortune, and if omitted the rest of the tortuous journey is bound in mysteries and shallow waters. Nigeria is enjoying tremendous goodwill within the country and throughout the universe and we should take advantage of that. If he said that on a Saturday and the following Monday or Tuesday, the leading nations of the world invited him to come to a meeting, as part of the flood flowing on our side, you think he should not oblige them so that it will go into nothing? I think he did well in honouring the invitation. Then he went to Chad and Niger. These are necessary steps because the first thing a new government must focus on is stability and security. Security is the first challenge. Other things can follow later. Like in our own case now, I am not trying to chart his priority for him, but I think he got his priority right. Security and electricity will help the economy and are crucial. Then you fix other things. Roads, education and others will fall in line. These are the things the man is tackling headlong.
During the campaigns, the president delineated security, corruption, electricity and to a lesser extent employment generation as the compass that will drive his government. Are they all realizable in your estimation?
That’s a good focus. If you think that security, corruption, electricity and employment generation will take care of themselves then there is a problem. There are a lot of small and medium scale cottage industries which employ many people, because they are many. All over the world, you know it’s medium scale cottage industries that absorb the greatest number of people, than even the big firms. The big firms are few. The small and medium scale industries might be hundreds of thousands. And a little here, a little there, 10 in this one, 20 in the other one will generate more jobs than the very big ones. They run on electricity. Look at the situation in the textile industry which has been moribund in the North? What should have been a spinner of good income for us hasn’t. Without electricity, you cannot power those things, which are the essential machines that power the works. It’s called spinning machines.
The president also promised that the exchange rate of the naira and the dollar will be at par. Is that possible?
It’s possible. He did it before.
But these things are not done by diktat but through market forces?
This is what I know personally.
Let me tell you, in 1984, this same man, Buhari and Idiagbon invited me from the Central Bank to come and meet the number two man in the mint, the Nigeria Security and Minting Company to change the colour of the currency notes of the country as a part of the mechanism to boost confidence in the currency and drawing a curtain against a lot of Nigerian currency that was floating outside Nigeria. We did a good job. We succeeded in doing the thing. It was an aspect of the job of stabilizing the currency, the confidence in it and all the rest of that. Look at what was the exchange rate during his regime. I think it was about N3 to a dollar. I can’t remember the exact figure now. You know you did not give me enough notice for this interview for me to consult some documents and books and you are talking about some 20 or 25 years ago. So, I don’t remember the exchange rate very well. It must be something like N3 or N4 to a dollar. Look at the situation we have found ourselves today. About N200 to a dollar? It is lamentable. Things will be done basically. At least on the basis of the economic theory on the issue of purchasing power, I mean the exchange rate, in as much as foreign industrialists dictate what to pay for our products, including our oil which is the basic thing we do and our agricultural products and so on. And it is they who dictate what we will pay for our imports (and we import a lot) the advantage of fixing our currency, the exchange of our currency is not within our capacity. Do you get the argument I am making? But where there is a will, there is a way. This man knows the road. He plied the road before. These are some of the things he must be hunting for. He will get egghead economists and practical technocrats who can assist. You will be surprised when these things will be achieved.
Talking about ministerial positions now, how do you look at it? What kind of people are you looking at? That is the first leg. Buhari intends to prune down the number of ministers from 42 to 19. In a multi- ethnic country like Nigeria with a lot of problems, do you think it’s advisable?
I think it’s advisable. The only thing I am worried about is how you care about the clause in the constitution that a minister must come from each state. That is the only area that gives me some headache. And even at that, where there is a will, there is a way.
But he wants to cover it up with the appointment of over thirty junior ministers who will man ministries…
Eh! I don’t know. But as I just said, where there is a will, there is a way. There is need for change in this country. The system is too expensive for our economy to sustain. There are too many leakages. He wants to block them. Part of blocking them is to minimize the expenses we incur on running the administration. Our recurrent expenditure is far, far out of proportion to our capital votes. And it should be the other way round, or it should be adjusted that the extreme will not be too far. We need to spend more on capital expenditure. The former Minister of Finance, Mrs Okonjo- Iweala said that we need to save for the rainy day. I am not sure that her government agreed with her on that, or practicalized it. But I remember she said that to her credit. In the past 16 years, the PDP government had been eating with 10 fingers into the bowl at the same time. So, these are some of those things we should look at. Even the structure of the country itself deserves attention. Thirty six states, and a good number of them in debt, 774 local governments, and many of the governors are planning to have local development areas and so on. We must consider to what extent we are going with this . Look at the economy .How big should our cabinet be? And how many cabinet positions can this country succeed with? And we are talking like this, look at America. In the United States of America, whose constitution we have borrowed here, the state of Texas is bigger in size than Nigeria. They have only two senators. We have three per state, even small states. It’s constitutional. These are things we have to sit down and look at and really adjust. When we went into the NADECO (National Democratic Coalition) struggle some 18 to 20 years back, what we had in mind was that there should be a national conference. We said sovereign, they said no, it must not be sovereign, let it be national conference. Eventually, we had an imitation of it, not the real thing. We thought there should be a conference to draft the constitution, while we have a true federal structure. Perhaps, we get six regional set ups so that we shrink the level of expenditure and then adjustments could be made over the matter of states, whether it is states or local governments or provinces you call them. We were of the opinion that probably we should pursue parliamentary system of government and not the presidential system, because the parliamentary system will be less expensive. These were the things we had in mind. We thought we could sit down and adjust, but we couldn’t apply any of the things at the beginning of a new term, changing the rules when the game is already on. If we must do any of those things, it must be with effect from 2019. We now looked at the fact that remuneration of legislators should be allowances. You can only do that before another election, not when they have won an election on the current basis of remuneration. That will be changing the rules when the game is on. It will be unfair. These are some of the things we have to really sit down to thrash out and review . But it may not be an immediate thing I will expect this government to do now. There are more pressing things. Security is more pressing. Electricity generation, creation of jobs, fixing the roads, fighting corruption, blocking the wastages, all the stealing going on the high seas and the borders of the country. But if you look and listen well, you will know that there are good signs of happy days coming. Soon, some of the refineries will start working. We are counting on a matter of weeks. That’s some good news for the country
Who do you credit it to? Is it the present government or Jonathan’s government?
Look, look, does it matter? I have forgotten how the bible put it. It happened in somebody’s time. That is the bottom line. That’s part of the credit of the person who is there. Now, (Laughs)look at the heavy debts already accumulated. Who is going to pay? Was it not the erstwhile government that incurred it? But it’s this government that will pay it. Will it be paid by the old government that incurred it? It’s this government that will pay . Do you get my point?
So, the credit for the reactivation of the refineries will go to Buhari who has only been in power for three weeks.
It’s in their own time that it happened. It shows that there is hope. It’s at a time that a man that is seen as effective, a man that we all have confidence in is in charge. He is already sending shivers down the backbone of the Boko Haram insurgents. It’s just a question of time the whole thing will be over. You will see it happen. So, let us be patient a bit and let us cooperate with this government. It’s necessary. If you want change, no one man can effect the change. You don’t expect President Buhari to be a magician.
Is former President Goodluck Jonathan a villain or a hero? How do you see him in history?
I don’t like to judge people. He tried his best. Only that Nigerians felt that his best was not good enough for us. That is all. Let’s leave that man alone. He is not the issue now. The issue is how to resolve some of those things. If there are questions for him to answer, we can call him to come and answer but I don’t like kicking somebody who has fallen out of power. No, if he has questions to answer we ask him. Besides that, we should stop vilifying him.I won’t kick him. Nigerians are fond of that. Three months ago they said“ah he is the best president Nigeria ever had.” I don’t belong to that sort of group. You remember the Abacha days? Somebody organized a march to say “this is the best government we ever had.” The era was said to be the best in the history of the country. We were in detention that time. You could imagine how we felt. Some people were in exile, some were dead, and they said he was the best. We were praying for our lives in solitary detention and they were praising our tormentor. I will not fall into that trap of lily jelly people, without backbones who will always like to praise to high heavens whoever is in government and immediately that person is out of power they begin to kick and insult him. No.
Some state governments are already probing their predecessors. Do you think it’s a healthy development? Some have even inaugurated judicial commissions to bring their predecessors to book. It has not been happening for some time now.
Excuse me. You want me to be making value judgments? At my age, I have to reflect well. I cannot give a general answer, yes, or no.
Is it healthy for our democracy?
Is it unhealthy for our democracy, if I can put it back to you? If a government gets to a position and finds out that there is heavy looting, are you saying that we at the federal level will not recommend it? If you find that there was heavy looting, the governor should try to crosscheck. It is proper to dig into it through proper enquiry. But I must say that you don’t spend too much of your time looking back instead of looking forward. But if there are things you can still retrieve, you can go ahead. They may not have spent all the money they stole, there is nothing wrong if the governor has reasonable reasons to believe that certain things had been done badly, certain money had been taken from the coffers unlawfully, and this money can still be retrieved if he acts fast. Of course, such governors should go ahead. At the federal level, they should go ahead, if there are reasons to believe that some people have cornered some things unlawfully. Why should we waste time on that? But it shouldn’t be for the purpose of finding faults. No. Those objectives at hand must be concentrated on. Maybe, 75% on the objectives, and 25% or even less looking backwards to see where we stumbled, where the previous government failed, so as to make corrections.
Before I come closer home, let’s talk about the crisis in the APC and at the National Assembly. What do you think is particularly responsible for this crisis and how do you think it can be curtailed or even curbed entirely?
I cannot claim to know what has been responsible or the cause. If I knew the cause, I will certainly prescribe the solutions immediately. Chidi, if you know the cause of our crisis, please in the national interest offer solutions to us , we will apply them. In the nature of human beings, there can be crisis of expectations. Things have gone so bad and then suddenly you have prospects of goodness coming in. It’s not unnatural that some people in the jollity and enthusiasm of happy days ahead, may stumble on some holes or something, or some may be ruffling some feathers. But I think as I said somewhere festina Lenten, we should make haste slowly in correcting whatever ills we found ourselves in. I have no doubt in my mind that wiser counsel will prevail. These matters will be in the past. We must learn from the experience of the party we just defeated, PDP. They had similar crisis immediately they won the 2011 elections. Those problems were not solved in time and were part of what led to their failure in the end. We can’t afford as APC members to allow that bad history to repeat itself, especially with all the plans we have for the development of Nigeria. We cannot afford to disappoint Nigerians. That is why I appeal to all concerned as an elder in the party that we should make haste slowly. We should let sleeping dogs lie and we should not ask for a pound of flesh on any issue. Those who have some advantages now should not believe that others are fools and therefore they should drive the advantages home at the expense of the stability of the country. We all owe a duty to this country to put into practice the change we promised them which was their basis for voting us in. We need all hands on deck to assist us to resolve whatever these problems are. It’s in our own interest. I think the Board of Trustees of the party should be able to meet and advise on how to solve the problem. It’s not a problem of the party, it’s a problem of the whole nation. We represent the whole black race and we cannot afford to falter.
How do you see the acclaimed neutrality of the president in this crisis?
(Draws a sigh) He was only being consistent and I refer you to his inaugural speech. I was there and I listened very attentively. Study that speech again. That was why I quoted Julius Caesar in Shakespeare earlier. Part of what he said was that he will allow division or the principle of separation of power to operate. He will concentrate on his executive duties and will try not to interfere with the legislature and the judiciary. What do you expect a good statesman to say or to plan to do other than that? At the same time, he said though he will not interfere but that does not mean that if what is happening at the local government is going to be out of hand, he would watch. Certainly, he will not abdicate his responsibility to ensure good governance in this country. He made that promise. Study that speech. This man will satiate the laudable, beautiful intentions he has for this country.
If he fails what do you want Nigerians to do?
That he must not fail. That’s what Nigerians should do. What Nigerians should do is to ensure he does not fail. If he fails we are all doomed .It will be a failure of not only Nigerians, but the entire black race. That is why I am making this appeal to all the sides in the struggle that we cannot afford to fail. We must know how to manage success. We have succeeded. We must know how to manage success, so that it doesn’t turn into failure.Sometimes it has a thin dividing line . The line between success and failure is very thin and it’s tempting. Let nobody beat his chest either side and say “oh yes we had it.” No, it may be a pyrrhic victory.A very expensive one and if you lose it, it’s disastrous.
Who is the authentic Yoruba leader? Is it Bola Tinubu, ex-President Olusegun Obasanjo or the current Vice President, Yemi Osinbajo?
What does that mean to you? You are from the East. Who is the Leader of the Igbos?
Igbos are republican in nature…
(Laughter)Okay, our traditional rulers are our leaders.(more laughter) That solves it. We are not republicans.
But the argument is that Obasanjo had been president of this country severally, Tinubu has done what no one has done since the era of Awolowo most especially in taking the Yorubas to the mainstream of national politics and of course there is a serving no two man in Osinbajo. People always look up to people like these as their leaders based on their accomplishments. As a rebound, do you know that some people placed adverts in the papers last week hailing Ike Ekweremadu as the leader of the Igbos for no reason but that he is today the most visible Igbo in government holding the highest elective position…?
It takes more than that. It takes more than just holding the highest elective position. Papa Awolowo, did he hold the highest position? Yorubas are very diplomatic and exotic people. They have their ways of doing things. It is not for you to say this is your leader. They will reject him, if anyone imposes anyone on them. Leaders have always evolved. I was there at Ibadan, the day students nominated the late Senator Adesanya as Yoruba leader. It was at a conference in Ibadan and they said instead of everybody talking anyhow, let someone speak for the Yorubas. I think it was in 1998, just before the Abdulsalami-led transition programme. I cannot remember the name of the student, a very young man, he said let Abraham Adesanya be our leader, and everybody, including myself yelled “Yes.” That was how it happened.
So, who will speak for the Yorubas now?
When there is need for the pronouncement it will be made. But for that analysis you have just given me, you narrowed it down to three people. I don’t know of the fourth person. You want to make a pronouncement among the three?(laughs again). The answer will be found among that three.
(Cuts in) If you look at the person among the three, who is following in the footsteps of the all time Yoruba leader, in terms of organizational acumen, administrative insight and political sagacity? A lot of fingers are pointing towards Tinubu…
I asked you this question before. What does that mean to you? You are an Igbo person. What is your interest there? Why do you want to know who the leader of the Yorubas is? You are not saying who the leader of Nigeria is because you are entitled to know that. But how is the leader of the Yorubas of concern to you?
It is of concern to me because I am a student of history. Since Awolowo left, his shoes have been vacant and the Yorubas have been lacking in their fabled political cohesion. We want to see someone who will step into the shoes without opposition…
No. Papa Ajasin stepped into his shoes. Pa Abraham Adesanya followed. Then after Adesanya, you, yourself stepped in. Whatever you may say, you want to draw me into saying it is Mr A or Mr B which I don’t want to say. It is the Yorubas collectively who should say who our leader is. But there are certain things you cannot take away from certain people by way of achievements. If a person, by whatever method, even by luck, and I don’t think it is by luck alone, a lot of dedication, devotion, trick, intellect, wisdom and perseverance took our party from one state to get six states, from six states managed to talk and convince others and we got 16 states and got to the federal level, you cannot deny such a person the right to be called an achiever. But if say you have somebody who has done something bigger, let us see. He is an achiever. He has achieved a lot. And when I made that my appeal, I would rather appeal to him as a person, rather than through your newspaper.
My appeal still stands generally to all sides that there are certain things that even if we do not admit, history will confirm. When the history of this period is written, some people will hold the ace. Look at what happened to Winston Churchill. He gave more than any other person in the western world to confront the machinery of a brilliant strategist like Adolph Hitler. And he won, with the aid of America and so on. But it was with his ability and ingenuity as a leader that he got America in to the war including the fact that his own mother was an American. America didn’t want to be involved initially. What happened in the election that followed? People used the slogan, “Churchill of war is not Churchill of peace.” And they elected Artily. But everybody knew that Artily didn’t have 1/10 of the charisma and capabilities of Winston Churchill. My appeal is to anybody who is aggrieved now, that after all his achievements, some people are jealous of him. You can’t rule that one out. The game of life is not played according to the rule of logic. If it were so, the strongest man should be the richest man because he is able to work hardest. And the roadman should be the richest, because he is able to work hardest. Therefore, those who worked so hard to be where we are and seem not to be recognized should not overreact to the extent of spoiling the bigger picture. We should not destroy what we have built. In history, look at Charles De Gaulle of France. He was the hero of the French resistance. After the Second World War, he offered himself for election and was defeated. Very arrogant man, he retired to his village (Elyse, the village of two churches). The Time Magazine interviewed De Gaulle in January 1958. They asked him “you said you were retiring to your village and the nation had been ungrateful to you. Is there any hope of you coming back?” That was at the height of the Algerian uprising.
The French parliament was all inclusive of the colonies. There were parliamentarians from Algeria, Senegal , Cote d’ivoire, Morocco and so on in their parliament. He replied the interviewer that “France will send for me when she needs me.” I read the book The man who is France, quoting Louis 14 who said, “I am the state ( les stat c’est moiré).In the said interview he was asked” Do you still expect France to send for you?”. That was the period when France was changing government like they were changing coats. Almost every 3 to 6 months they were changing governments. The Algerian Army said the only man who will talk to them and they would down tools was De Gaulle. In May that year, France sent for him. He was about 70 that time and he said he was too old. Yet France sent for him. This country needs peace to satiate the change and it’s APC that will do it.
Who is the man who is Nigeria?
It’s Buhari of course. It goes without saying. That is a man of destiny. Like Abraham Lincoln, he tried several times and won. And he performed. I pray that he will be able to live long and achieve all that he achieved for this country. We need to co-operate with him. What has just happened to APC was predicted by Awolowo, the acclaimed leader of our tribe. That “someday will come when progressive minds in the East, in the West and in the North will come together to form a national government for Nigeria”. I believe this is the dawn of such a day. Not that we have realized it 100%, but we are just on the verge of translating it into reality. And that is why everyone must cooperate to achieve that dream.